Donahue 2nd Affirmative

Donahue's Second Affirmative

I appreciate the good job Steve has done. As I've said, I've had a number of debates and Steve does one of the best jobs of anybody I've faced. At least he tries to answer the arguments, make arguments. If you come to the debate tomorrow morning, I appreciate those folks, but they don't do nearly as well as Steve, to say the least. So I appreciate the good job Steve's doing. It doesn't mean I agree with him and we shall see what I have to say about what he said. He asked me, "what does it mean to be born again?" Or, to become a Christian? Steve, it means exactly what the Bible teaches it means. It means we were forgiven of our sins that we commit to becoming a new creature.

Okay, now let's turn to Romans six, because I had written down Romans six as a good passage to prove this and then Steve brought it up, talking about what the definition was. In Romans six he talks about water baptism. Steve probably doesn’t agree with that but that’s another debate. In verses 4-6 he says this is the point which we get “into Christ” and are forgiven of our sins. There’s the part about being born again – we’re forgiven of our sins. And, there’s a number of places here – really the main theme of this part of the passage is not baptism. He’s just saying, “look, when you were baptized you committed to live right,” and so Romans six is trying to say, “you need to live right.” That’s the second part of my definition. “You need to commit to becoming, you’ve committed to becoming a new creature, so you need to act like it.” Now it’s not something that’s “forced” upon us as Steve’s position has it. Look at verse 12 – he says “let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body that you should obey it in the lusts thereof.” So he’s not saying it’s impossible for you to "let sin reign in your mortal body" because you became a Christian and you were born again. He’s saying “because you were born again, that means this is what you OUGHT to do, to be consistent with what you said you would do when you became a Christian.”

I’ll get to this little later in Steve’s speech, while we’re here, he said in verse two, it says “God forbid: How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?” Steve presented that as if it was saying it’s impossible, if you’ve become “dead to sin,” to live in sin any more. That’s not what it’s saying. If I said to my child, “If you love me, how could you do this to me?” Like he had a severe case of disobedience. Maybe he got caught getting on drugs at school. Let’s hope that never happens. But the saying, “How could you do this to me” doesn’t mean it’s impossible; it means it’s inconsistent with your professed love for me. That’s what he’s saying in Romans six. If you’re “dead to sin,” not that it’s impossible to “live any longer therein”; That’s not the point at all. The point’s the very opposite of that; That “if you love me” or become “dead to sin,” you shouldn’t “live any longer therein.” You can see that from verse one. The whole question of the chapter resolves around verse one, “shall we continue in sin that grace may abound.” Not that it’s impossible. But Paul’s trying to say the answer to that is “no.” You should not "continue in sin." It’s possible! And some of them were doing it and he says “you shouldn’t be doing that.” Don’t you know that when you were baptized, when you committed to become a Christian, you committed to live as a new creature, a different life? Verse twelve – “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body.” Not that it’s impossible! He says don’t do it. It is possible. You shouldn’t do it. So Romans six is a passage on my side of the equation.

There were a number of things that Steve said, and very quickly, that I won’t have time to get to, but let’s pick out one that he developed somewhat. Luke 8, the parable of the sower, let’s talk about some of the things he said.

First, he said that this good, honest and good hearted person is given a gift of perseverance. That’s not what Luke 8:15 says. It doesn’t say they are given a gift of perseverance or that God would force them to persevere. It says that they, these good and honest souls, having the word they got, “keep it, bring forth fruit with patience.” In other words, it’s up to them, they do it, not God. God doesn’t force them. Their not given this gift, that Steve’s talking about, meaning forced. They will do it. But, they can choose not to.

Now look back at something else Steve said. Steve said, “here’s the ones,” in verse 13, “they fell on the rock,” and he says “see, it says they for awhile believed and in time of temptation they fall away,” that shows, Steve says, that shows they were just professed believers, not real believers. That’s not what Jesus said. This passage proves my position. It says they “believed.” Now, Jesus ought to know if they believed or not. He didn’t say they professed belief, he said they did believe. And, either Jesus was wrong or he was right.

Steve says that Jesus should have meant they were professed believers and “fell away.” If they “fell away,” what did they fall away from? No, it says they believed, and Jesus knows what he’s talking about. He’s right. It says “they believed”; it didn’t say Jesus thinks they believed. It says they “believed.” Contrast that with verse twelve. Notice these persons, in verse twelve, he talks about the word being “taken away from the heart,” it says, “lest they should believe and be saved.” The implication is that, had they believed, they would have been saved. So, the one in verse thirteen, got closer. They didn’t get all the way to heaven but they got closer. Verse twelve talks about people that heard the word but they didn’t, the word was “taken out” before they believed and were saved. Verse thirteen’s talking about those who did believe, Steve, and according to the implication, they would have been saved. But, then they “fell away.” That proves my position. Then, verse fifteen, it’s talking about those who believe, and were saved, and persevered. Verse thirteen is talking about what we’re talking about tonight – those who believed, were saved, and did not persevere. Do you see that?

Now, Steve, as far as the heart is concerned. He thought – these had a good and honest heart and they persevered. They did persevere. That, people that have a good and honest heart will persevere as long as they continue to have a good and honest heart. Like a sheep is a follower of Christ, but when he ceases to follow Christ, he ceases to be a sheep. John 10. When a person ceases to have a good and honest heart, then he ceases, he will cease to persevere. Now, can I prove that a person can have a good heart and then turn to a bad heart? Sure, the Bible teaches that. Do you remember Solomon? It talks about his heart. Remember when he chose, Andrew, he could have chosen riches or women, he chose to have wisdom. God compliments his heart because he didn’t choose those things. He chose wisdom. But, later it said, about Solomon, that his “heart was turned from the Lord” by his wives. So you see his heart was good and then his heart was “turned from the Lord.” These wives, idolatrous people, “turned his heart.” So, you can have a “good and honest heart” and be changed and have a bad heart as Solomon did, and therefore, verse fifteen of Luke 8, were not described any more.

Let’s notice some other mistakes that, with all due respect, Steve is making. This is a glaring mistake. He made an argument based upon an illustration that we’re “joined to Christ,” that we’re “glued,” as if you couldn’t become unglued from Christ. Boy, I try to glue a lot of things around my house and they, more than about half the time they become unglued, Steve. But I want you to notice what Steve said about Matthew nineteen verse six. This is talking about marriage, but I suspect it could be applied to other things, being larger than that, he says, it says, “what God has joined together in Christ," he added that, “will not be put asunder.” What God has joined together will not be put asunder! That’s not what it says! Now, he used that to prove, he says it says, “What God has joined together will not be put asunder,” as if, if God joins it together, it can’t be “put asunder.” Impossible! But it says the very opposite of that, Steve. It says, “what God has joined together LET NOT man put asunder,” which means man can put is asunder. So, it teaches the very opposite. “What God has glued together, let not man unglue it,” which means he can unglue it. So, it defeats your point. And then he says Christians are “addicted to Christ,” and we talked about this at the supper table tonight, and he agreed with me that addictions can be broken, so his point is incorrect. Yes, we ought to be addicted to Christ. That’s a good thing. And, a matter of fact, I’ll go so as far as to say we should be fanatics for Christ, in the right way. But, we can lose our addiction, just like you can overcome the addiction to cigarettes, it’s possible, and I gave you many examples of that. One of those is Hebrews 3:12, remember it’s talking about “brethren,” “holy brethren,” so if they’re “holy brethren,” wouldn’t you say they had an addiction to Christ? Certainly. He said “lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief.” Now, they changed to unbelief. Did they still have addiction to Christ? Obviously not. In “departing from the living God,” they became unglued, didn’t they? They certainly did. You know the verse is teaching exactly what I am saying. It directly contradicts Steve’s position. He turned to the “glue” passage that says the opposite of what Steve is saying. Verse three shows the very opposite of what he is saying. Do you see that? You can lose that addiction.

Then he said the New Testament epistles were written to professed Christians. Not all of them were good. Okay. Let’s deal with that. What he’s saying is, that when you see a book, like Hebrews, and I quoted Hebrews 3:12, it says “brethren,” that’s really professed believers, and some of them may not be true believers. Like, if Steve and I were preaching, we would say “brethren,” but we wouldn’t know for sure that all of them were truly brethren. Somebody there, who believed and was baptized, and looks like they became a brother, might have done it for the wrong reason. But, we have to assume the best because we can’t read their heart unless they tell us, and that’s right. But see, that’s because we’re not inspired. We don’t know for sure if a person had become a brother. Right? We’re not that inspired, so we have to assume they did, if their fruit shows that they did, they tell us. If a person comes to you and repents, we have to assume their truly repenting and forgive them. Right? But Paul was inspired. Jesus was inspired. When Jesus said, in Luke 8, is it verse 12, that they “believed,” he would know whether or not if they believed. He’s not like you and me preaching from the pulpit calling somebody a “brother,” he knows! He always 100%, he’s omnipotent and omniscient, is the word I should think of, and Paul is the same way, in that he was inspired. He wasn’t omniscient, but anything he was inspired to say as a prophet, or write, it was in effect omniscient, because God said it, in other words, it would not be wrong. So, when Paul calls somebody a “brother,” he’s not wrong, not when it’s in the Bible, for that’s inspired of God. Now, really, we’re getting down to whether we believe the inspiration of the Bible here. Now Steve does believe the inspiration of the Bible. He believes it’s inerrant, but his position is denying the inerrancy and inspiration of God, because he’s saying it calls them “brethren” in the Bible but they weren’t really brethren. So, he’s saying it was wrong, Hebrews 3:12 is wrong. Now, let’s go on beyond that point, the fact that they were called “brethren” by inspired, let’s go beyond that point. Did you notice I was careful in many of these passages, I didn’t just say they were called “brother,” it had further adjectives, to prove that they were true brethren, not just professed brethren, what did I do in Hebrews chapter three? Does anybody remember? Any man remember how I did that in Hebrews three? What I say? It says “brethren,” verse twelve, but what showed that they were true brethren? Verse one. “Holy brethren.” Now you can’t be a “holy brethren” if you’re not really a brother if you just did it because your wife wanted you to be baptized. Your not a “holy” brother, you may, some man, some uninspired man, may think you’re a brother – see how I did that Steve? That answers your argument right there. Now, let’s see how it works in John 15. Remember how it talks these people, they were the “branches,” and then it says “If you don’t bear fruit, I’m going to “prune” you, and an analogy is pruning, like in apples or something, and will take you out and “burn” you. Well, the point spiritually is, the spiritual part of the analogy, the **** is, if you don’t abide in me, and you don’t bear fruit, then you’re going to be burned – everlasting punishment. What did I say about that?